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chaydov

Joined: 05/05/2008 07:26:48
Messages: 20
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Number: Puzzle #898
Genre: Sudoku
Author: valvino
Appeared at: June 30, 2008

I think the vertical line down the middle needs to be thicker. Otherwise we cannot know what are the two distinct areas in the middle section of the puzzle. (unless that's part of the challenge?)

Chaydov
valvino

Joined: 16/04/2008 20:15:15
Messages: 46
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there is no line down the middle, there is no need for it and so it's not there. apart from at the top and bottom of course!
Johan

Joined: 22/12/2006 20:08:51
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Just because I can not resist, let me point out this puzzle could be kind of turned inside out and it will remain equivalent, if many find it unclear. But maybe it's better if we reword the sudoku text a bit to avoid this kind of confusion...
chaydov

Joined: 05/05/2008 07:26:48
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I agree that change in wording helps, bcz it seemed that only one of each digit was allowed in a specific area. And with only 6 digits and 12 squares that would have been impossible.

Thanks
Bram

Joined: 04/03/2008 13:59:34
Messages: 359
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Well yeah, the dividing line doesn't NEED to be there obviously because it is implied. Don't think it adds much to the solving.
svdb

Joined: 15/03/2008 22:07:11
Messages: 43
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No amount of "implying" will change the fact that the "solution" does not correspond to the rules.

When "solving" this puzzle you have to conclude that the puzzle is wrong, and then throw one of the rules overboard.
connect4

Joined: 04/03/2008 05:04:39
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I think this can be fixed by specifying that all areas of size exactly N will contain each of the digits from 1..N exactly once (where N is the number specified in the puzzle). The current rule with "all larger areas" could be confusing.

As for this puzzle, under the above interpretation, you do not need to violate a rule for the solution to be valid.
Maarten

Joined: 22/12/2006 20:10:10
Messages: 619
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I changed the description to explicitly mention that there are n digits and the regions have to be of size n, at the possible price of the description sounding too mathematical now (it would probably be better if the value of n would just be used in the text). This should make this puzzle correct according to the rules again.

An alternative would be to also allow regions of size kn for some integer k, and to require that each number from 1 to n appears exactly k times in such a region. But maybe that becomes a bit too complicated, and the difference with the current rules would only start playing a role when there are at least 2 regions of size 2n anyway...
svdb

Joined: 15/03/2008 22:07:11
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How about "Within each line, column, and demarcated area, each digit occurs the same number of times, and at least once"?
connect4

Joined: 04/03/2008 05:04:39
Messages: 250
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svdb wrote:
How about "Within each line, column, and demarcated area, each digit occurs the same number of times, and at least once"?

That one works on this puzzle, but it doesn't work on others (for instance, puzzles 614 and 686 by Richard.Stolk) where single boxes are sometimes placed.
valvino

Joined: 16/04/2008 20:15:15
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Allow me to say first how amazed I am that one puzzle sparked so much debate, and I'm kinda sorry for causing it all. However, that aside, I think that definition svdb came up with seems to work just fine although I would slightly alter it to allow it to contain the four or so puzzles which have areas of a size other than the number of digits they contain (1-7, 1-8, 1-9 etc.)

1. In each row, column and area equal to the number of digits used in the puzzle, each digit occurs once.
2. Where a row, column or area occurs of any size other than the area equal to the number of digits then any digit can found in each square, except where it conflicts with rule 1.

This definition covers all the intricacies of all the puzzles so far released, and still gives a logical solution to the few puzzles with areas larger or smaller than the number of digits used. However, I appriciate that the wording isn't exactly great. Sorry for causing this debate but I hope that this about covers everything that is possible for someone to create and can still be undeniably called a logical suduko puzzle.

Cheers guys,

Chris (valvino)
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