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11/02/2010 01:26:54
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rantash
Joined: 06/01/2010 01:39:25
Messages: 10
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Thank you Johan for the crafting the Fillomino applet. It is really beautiful.
I have a few usability suggestions; I'll post each one as a separate post so it will be easier to keep track of them.
Please don't think this means I don't like your work; I like it, and I really appreciate it.
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11/02/2010 01:46:19
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rantash
Joined: 06/01/2010 01:39:25
Messages: 10
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The use of borders as connectors is beautiful. Also, it can really help new Fillomino solvers to get the idea.
There are almost no cases where manually adding the connector is helpful for the solving the puzzle; after all if, you placed a connector next to a solved cell, it means you can immediately solve the cell it connects to. There are relatively few cases where you would want to indicate that adjacent empty cells must have the same value.
For these reasons I think these connectors should be automatic.
If the choosing the color of the connector automatically is an issue you can peak a neutral one, or average the RGB values of the two cells.
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11/02/2010 01:49:51
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rantash
Joined: 06/01/2010 01:39:25
Messages: 10
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In my opinion, separators are much more helpful to the solution process than connector, therefore the left click should be for separation, not connection.
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11/02/2010 01:54:40
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rantash
Joined: 06/01/2010 01:39:25
Messages: 10
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Dragging black cells would be really helpful, especially when large numbers are placed there. This way one wouldn't normally need the keyboard shortcut, and can only use the mouse.
The color of the target cell should, of course, be determined by the current user color.
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11/02/2010 02:11:55
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rantash
Joined: 06/01/2010 01:39:25
Messages: 10
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Dragging a number is the easiest way to fill a cell.
If a user changed the color he is solving the puzzle and then uses dragging, I don't think that he usually wants to change the color of the original cell; he just wants to save time and effort.
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11/02/2010 07:36:20
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Maarten
Joined: 22/12/2006 20:10:10
Messages: 619
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Thanks for your suggestions! And for your compliments too.
rantash wrote:
I think these connectors should be automatic.
Automatic elements are indeed something that we have on our list. I think it would be really useful in many genres; for example, in battleships or snakes puzzles it would be useful if the pieces you fill in take the right appearance based on the neighbouring cells, instead of the user having to click x times on it.
rantash wrote:
Dragging black cells would be really helpful.
Dragging from given numbers is also an interesting suggestion. I can see how Fillomino would benefit from that, and while it seems less useful for most other genres it wouldn't hurt either.
Both of these require some major changes to the applet though, and we have not been working on it for a while now. But we do plan to redesign the applet eventually, and when we do, we will definitely take these into account.
As for your other suggestions, they are easier to implement, but perhaps more subject to preference. Therefore I would like to hear other people's opinions on them...
rantash wrote:
Left click should be for separation, not connection.
Personally, I think it is more consistent to have the numbers and connectors both on the same (left) mouse button, since they are both "positive" elements, while the separator is a "negative" element.
rantash wrote:
If a user changed the color he is solving the puzzle and then uses dragging, I don't think that he usually wants to change the color of the original cell.
This may be reasonable. But it could also be confusing. I'm not sure on this one...
Thanks again for the feedback!
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11/02/2010 08:59:05
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Johan
Joined: 22/12/2006 20:08:51
Messages: 1046
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rantash wrote:
Thank you Johan for the crafting the Fillomino applet. It is really beautiful.
Maarten is the one responsible for the beauty of this Fillomino implementation.
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11/02/2010 23:56:52
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rantash
Joined: 06/01/2010 01:39:25
Messages: 10
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Ok, then, Thank you Maarten.
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14/02/2010 23:34:06
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Cyclone
Joined: 12/10/2009 10:28:36
Messages: 27
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Maarten wrote:
rantash wrote:
Left click should be for separation, not connection.
Personally, I think it is more consistent to have the numbers and connectors both on the same (left) mouse button, since they are both "positive" elements, while the separator is a "negative" element.
I agree with Maarten here, it's more logical the way it is.
On another note, I'm not very used to seeing the solution to a fillomino with filled-in cells and white numbers. I'm not sure whether that affects my solving, though.
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14/05/2011 02:32:45
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Shvegait
Joined: 13/02/2010 03:36:12
Messages: 105
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Just came here to suggest that Left-click be used for the separators, and saw that it had been suggested already.
Here is an alternate reasoning for this:
1) The left-click is the dominant button, and should correspond to the most useful function. Knowing that two adjacent numbers are not the same but not knowing one of the two numbers is a common occurrence, and the separator provides useful information here.
2) The only time connectors may provide information is when you know two numbers are connected but don't know the value of the number. That is not a very common situation (comes up in the larger Nikoli puzzles but not common in smaller puzzles). Of course, if you know the value of one of the two numbers, the other is the same, so the connector is not needed.
But perhaps the biggest reason for making the separator left-click and connector right-click is that just about every other applet on this site that has the concept of separator and connector has left-click as the separator and right-click as the connector. Heterocut, Seethrough, Neighbours, etc.
Of course it is really not a big deal!
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14/05/2011 13:58:02
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Bram
Joined: 04/03/2008 13:59:34
Messages: 359
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I think the big difference between this genre and genres like heterocut, seethrough and neighbours is that the active solution element here are the numbers, where in the others the active solution element are the seperation lines. You need to fill out all numbers to get a correct solution, not just the seperated lines. That's why the number connectors here are under the left click and the seperators, which are to keep notes is under the right click. That's generally how the genres controls are oriented here.
I'm not sure how it's done on other sites. Does Nikoli have a fillomino app? All I'm familiar with is Crocopuzzle, which has no option to draw lines at all for, it's only placing numbers and the lines are drawn automatically, but not manually adjustable.
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15/05/2011 17:12:01
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Shvegait
Joined: 13/02/2010 03:36:12
Messages: 105
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I don't think Nikoli has an app.
Otto Janko has a Fillomino Applet:
http://www.janko.at/Applets/index.htm
It draws in lines automatically, but you can also place/remove lines manually with left-click (or right-click; there is no concept of connectors).
I understand the rationale for why the separators are right-click. I just naturally try to use left-click to place the separators for some reason. Maybe because I type in the numbers and rarely use left-click for anything when solving Fillomino puzzles (mostly just to re-focus the applet), since connectors are not required. It is such a small thing though, it doesn't really matter.
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15/05/2011 17:39:47
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Forseti
Joined: 20/01/2010 22:41:50
Messages: 113
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I only use the separators to imply that 2 squares need to have different numbers when at least 1 square doesn't have a number yet, but I connect all equally numbered squares to get a better sense of area cohesion.
That means I tend to use connectors a lot more than separators, so the way the mouse buttons are assigned sits well with me. It would be a different matter if connectors were automatically added between identical numbers, in which case I'd hardly ever have to manually draw a connector.
It doesn't really matter much anyway I suppose, the applet works well enough either way.
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15/05/2011 18:58:44
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Lord_Farin
Joined: 30/12/2010 15:32:40
Messages: 63
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Forseti wrote:
...
It doesn't really matter much anyway I suppose, the applet works well enough either way.
I agree with this. The machinery provided is good enough to facilitate pleasant solving of the puzzle (although the fact that one can't enter numbers above 10 by keyboard can be a pain...)
Automated separators/connectors would be beautiful, but I can imagine they can be confusing or annoying when errors with dragging are made; such however would of course depend on the particular methods involved.
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